[20:19] EECSlabGopher: not to say starcraft was a bad game, but it really didn't build on anything at all, and the formula hasn't changed since then except for the total war games, which are really an offshoot of turned based games IMO
[20:21] jediigor: yeah, that one is hard to explain, i prefer "grand strategy" because other games like Knights of Honor are similar
[20:21] EECSlabGopher: heh warlords is vicious because of the HS times
[20:21] jediigor: but even so, if you took total war and made the map part real time... heh
[20:22] jediigor: HS?
[20:22] EECSlabGopher: hyperspace
[20:22] jediigor: eh its realistic
[20:22] jediigor: its in the same damn solar system, of course I'd expect it to be near instant
[20:22] EECSlabGopher: exactly
[20:22] jediigor: people dont like it, they can build interdictors!!
[20:23] jediigor: but will you think of the poor little kids who will get owned by hyperspace rushes..
[20:23] EECSlabGopher: heh
[20:23] EECSlabGopher: I still would like to implement the galaxy system we thought up
[20:24] EECSlabGopher: I liked the node system
[20:24] jediigor: with all the real time simultaneous stuff ?
[20:24] EECSlabGopher: well on a simpler level
[20:24] EECSlabGopher: just the galaxy map
[20:24] EECSlabGopher: simmed tactical lets say
[20:24] jediigor: hell a real time galaxy could work
[20:24] EECSlabGopher: yeah
[20:24] EECSlabGopher: and that could easily be an online gme
[20:24] EECSlabGopher: hmmm
[20:24] jediigor: haha yeah...
[20:25] jediigor: evaders said he would make one, then the sith guy said he woud make one..
[20:25] jediigor: if someones going to make one they better use be using python lol
[20:25] EECSlabGopher: I want you to look at this, and just concentrate on the overall idea, and apply the level of economy we were thinking of http://ogame.org/
[20:27] jediigor: ah yeah lots of back-end logic can be done without having fancy graphics.
[20:28] EECSlabGopher: basically that game works by making fleet travel semi realtime
[20:28] EECSlabGopher: like it may take 8 hours to get somewhere
[20:28] EECSlabGopher: so the player logs in many times instead of all at once
[20:28] jediigor: sounds like archspace
[20:28] EECSlabGopher: hoever you can do things like move your fleet behind a moon, and then when the enemy fleet arrives you jump them in seconds before
[20:28] EECSlabGopher: its all on a real time clock
[20:29] jediigor: archspace was 5 mins per tick
[20:29] EECSlabGopher: well in this it will tell you that your fleet will arrive at XXX at 10:59 60 EST
[20:29] jediigor: ah
[20:30] jediigor: thats easy, just set-up scheduling
[20:30] EECSlabGopher: yeah
[20:30] EECSlabGopher: Will you be able to capture space and ground vehicles?
You cannot capture space vehicles but you can capture ground vehicles when using Chewbacca, one of the Rebel hero characters in EAW.
[20:30] jediigor: see, maybe someone has already made the thing you were talking about ;) (ogame)
[20:30] jediigor: Totally random, eh
[20:30] EECSlabGopher: however there are inherent flaws
[20:31] EECSlabGopher: because you are set to a schedule you have to play it at weird times, and there's not much to do each time, which me get a lot of people in, I don't know
[20:31] jediigor: huh ?
[20:31] jediigor: "which me get a lot of people in" ?
[20:31] EECSlabGopher: which might
[20:31] EECSlabGopher: bleh
[20:32] jediigor: ah, also they are using php 4, that's a flaw too ;)
[20:32] EECSlabGopher: heh
[20:32] EECSlabGopher: anyway, I could see that working very well with the character system we had thought up
[20:32] EECSlabGopher: and the hyperspace based economy routes
[20:32] jediigor: just avatars or personnel ?
[20:33] EECSlabGopher: remember we had named and generated,
[20:33] jediigor: oh yeah
[20:33] jediigor: did I tell you about avatars though ?
[20:33] EECSlabGopher: I don't believe so
[20:33] jediigor: I thought it would be pretty cool if you could make your own avatar present in the game
[20:33] jediigor: and kind of like Emperor Palpatine, you would get bonuses for being in the Seat of Power, plus crazy stats since he represents you
[20:34] jediigor: you could *force* certain gameplay if the avatar is kidnapped/killed, etc
[20:34] EECSlabGopher: yeah that would be interesting
[20:34] EECSlabGopher: now here's another idea I had
[20:34] jediigor: to flesh out a role-playing layer ... go ahead
[20:34] EECSlabGopher: my g/f told me it was a horrible Idea but heh I'll run it by you
[20:35] EECSlabGopher: so lets say you have a training academy
[20:35] EECSlabGopher: the training academy generates Xn people of each range per time unit
[20:35] jediigor: Xn ?
[20:35] EECSlabGopher: X sub n
[20:35] jediigor: X^n, X*n, ?
[20:35] jediigor: X with a small n ?
[20:35] EECSlabGopher: yeah
[20:35] jediigor: what does that supposed to mean
[20:36] EECSlabGopher: basically it would mean lets say 100 recruits
[20:36] EECSlabGopher: 20 privates
[20:36] EECSlabGopher: 5 majors
[20:36] EECSlabGopher: etc
[20:36] jediigor: all categories at once, or just 1 at any time
[20:36] EECSlabGopher: lets say each rank has a time range
[20:36] EECSlabGopher: so recruits would take Y time units
[20:37] EECSlabGopher: privates would take 2Y
[20:37] EECSlabGopher: each rank being longer to train
[20:37] jediigor: are you thinking of pipelining the training time?
[20:37] EECSlabGopher: of course there would be field promotions in addition
[20:37] EECSlabGopher: remember the dicussion of 'absolute advancement capacity' vs 'actual advancement' of a unit?
[20:38] jediigor: vaguely. something about the max a unit can get in stats and the tendency for a unit's stats to improve ?
[20:38] EECSlabGopher: each unit could be field promoted towards their maximum absolute rank, but if they don't take down time to train they take longer and longer to get field promoted
[20:39] EECSlabGopher: so forcing a promising commander to stay in battle would make him less effective
[20:39] jediigor: ah
[20:39] jediigor: battle fatigue
[20:39] EECSlabGopher: you have to pull him out for training to uncap him
[20:39] EECSlabGopher: but on a longer scale
[20:39] EECSlabGopher: battle fatigue on the months and years scale
[20:39] jediigor: go on
[20:39] EECSlabGopher: okay so I was thinking that you add a few more variables to a commander unit
[20:40] jediigor: btw just so I dont get confused, this is all part of one big idea irght?
[20:40] EECSlabGopher: you add in his morale bonus, but its calculated based on a 'personality type'
[20:40] EECSlabGopher: yes
[20:40] EECSlabGopher: so a commander may not get field promoted despite his stats because his soldiers hate him
[20:41] EECSlabGopher: and therefore he performs poorly compared to his ideal growth curve
[20:41] jediigor: ok thats kind of like the vices and virtues in TW
[20:41] EECSlabGopher: whereas academy training is also not a garantee of sucess because the commander may just not get along with his troops (translates to lower morale bonus)
[20:42] EECSlabGopher: so yeah advance that out to higher levels of command, and that's what I was thinking, a vice and virtue
[20:42] jediigor: I missed the part where you tied battle fatigue in with vices & virtues
[20:43] EECSlabGopher: but the issue would be that you would have a limited number of high ranking people, if you decided to remove them because of thier vices then you would either suffer a large tactial stat blow or have to wait for a replacement to be trained (or have a field promotion that may have low stats because they have been long term battle fatugued)
[20:44] EECSlabGopher: or lets say your high commander was killed
[20:44] jediigor: well, short term battle fatigue can be immediate morale, and long-term can be simply referred to as battle fatigue from now on
[20:46] jediigor: but I'm still not really sure how you're tying those 2 ideas together
[20:47] EECSlabGopher: just a second
[20:49] EECSlabGopher: okay so we have a vice and virtue system, and on a lower level a general 'personality' for the autogen units
[20:50] EECSlabGopher: and on the other level we have a stat modification based on their compatability to their troops
[20:50] EECSlabGopher: a cap of absolute advancement and a actual advancment that is modified by the 'battle fatigue'
[20:51] EECSlabGopher: now if we consider that well stated, compatible and, trained commanders are a rarity
[20:51] jediigor: you mean whether or not their personality is liked by the troops ?
[20:51] EECSlabGopher: we could say there is an aggression rating
[20:52] EECSlabGopher: a charisma rating
[20:52] EECSlabGopher: and a tactics rating
[20:52] jediigor: ah, yes, charisma..
[20:52] EECSlabGopher: the best leader would have high in all 3
[20:52] jediigor: aggression being how much he can advance ?
[20:53] EECSlabGopher: but aggression vs defensive would be an inverted curve
[20:53] EECSlabGopher: so depending on the mission they would perform better or worse
[20:53] EECSlabGopher: the best would be in the center in that category
[20:54] EECSlabGopher: but not in all situations
[20:54] jediigor: errr, so what is aggression rating represent then
[20:54] EECSlabGopher: offensive vs defensive planning
[20:54] EECSlabGopher: charisma would be how much the troops follow them
[20:54] EECSlabGopher: and tactics is just raw intelligence
[20:56] jediigor: oh
[20:56] EECSlabGopher: they would also have a rank cap
[20:56] EECSlabGopher: and a current rank
[20:56] jediigor: well you'd have to have "base", "cap", and "advancement rate" for each of those 3 stats
[20:57] EECSlabGopher: their advancement curve would be based on thier stats, performance, training and battle fatigue
[20:57] EECSlabGopher: battle fatigue would cut away at their othe numbers
[20:57] jediigor: sure.. sure the advancement rate could be calculated from other #s
[20:58] jediigor: but this sounds pretty reasonable so far, i'm waiting for the part that your gf thought was silly
[21:00] EECSlabGopher: okay so you have limited command staff that is at the appropriate traing level
[21:00] EECSlabGopher: the virtues and vice system means that some of your commadners are awful commanders, but their stats are too high to let go of
[21:00] EECSlabGopher: the question is, would you think having them screw up would add to gameplay or subtract from it
[21:01] jediigor: is that a rhetoric question
[21:01] jediigor: or do you really mean, "would you think giving the commanders the ability to screw up ...."
[21:01] EECSlabGopher: the example would be that your admiral was killed, you field promote the next best canidate, but he has an awful charisma stat and no one follows his orders, however he is marginally better than the next guy so you have to use him and manage his vices
[21:02] EECSlabGopher: or if he was a great defensive stat, but you need to run an attack, but his stat is still better than the next guy
[21:02] jediigor: i understand what you are referring to, but unsure of the question
[21:03] EECSlabGopher: or yes, to the point of having a leader intentially misbehave (call it a creative tactics stat, it provides a random chance that an extreme plan would suceed better, but would also run the risk of great failure)
[21:03] EECSlabGopher: what the idea was trying to balance is that as the head of a empire, you have to deal with your underlings
[21:04] EECSlabGopher: holding on to traitors or selectively giving assignments to firebrands
[21:04] EECSlabGopher: this would only be simmed at the highest level, maybe the top 10 staff members
[21:05] EECSlabGopher: and it could also apply to non-combat characters like diplomats and governers/trade ministers
[21:05] EECSlabGopher: put in a level of corruption
[21:05] EECSlabGopher: +10% production -10% to order
[21:05] jediigor: so really your question was whether or not it was a good idea to implement negative stat modifiers?
[21:06] EECSlabGopher: not just stat modifiers
[21:06] EECSlabGopher: because in a game of pluses minus are tossed away
[21:06] jediigor: ?
[21:06] EECSlabGopher: what I mean is that you have to deal with them, the alternative is not having anyone
[21:06] EECSlabGopher: or having someone that is even more incompetant
[21:07] EECSlabGopher: and it would be a dynamic thing
[21:07] jediigor: but are you asking if adding this is a good idea or not
[21:07] EECSlabGopher: you could be training a replacement while putting up with one idiot
[21:08] EECSlabGopher: more of what I'm asking is if a player would accept their commander disobeying orders or actively hurting you
[21:08] EECSlabGopher: and weighing the risks
[21:08] jediigor: ah
[21:08] jediigor: damn straight
[21:08] jediigor: it makes it feel all that much more "grand"
[21:09] jediigor: like the game has a mind of its own instead of you being a total 100% dicttaor
[21:09] EECSlabGopher: I think it has to be thought about beyond the +10% - 10% level, but more at the 'is my defense minister going to try to stage a coup'
[21:09] jediigor: when there are "bad" characters present it will make the player grow closer to the "good" characters and appreciate the
[21:09] jediigor: them*
[21:09] EECSlabGopher: yeah
[21:09] EECSlabGopher: that was my opinion
[21:09] EECSlabGopher: that you would try to protect the good ones and put up with the bad
[21:10] jediigor: i would say have some extreme + or - 50% but /w an extreme gaussian curve
[21:10] EECSlabGopher: I was thinking probability
[21:10] EECSlabGopher: the probability a commander would break lines and charge type of thing
[21:10] EECSlabGopher: or just sit in the fetal position
[21:10] jediigor: well i meant gaussian curve as how to much "better" or "worse" your commander is then the "average"
[21:11] EECSlabGopher: what this neatly wraps up is all of the stats work together
[21:12] EECSlabGopher: the intelligence and charisma provide raw materials, but their enviroment may repress them, you can take them off to the side and train them, but you may have to substitute an unoptimal replacement
[21:12] EECSlabGopher: because they won't advance past a certian point unless they are formally trained and remove their battle fatigue
[21:13] EECSlabGopher: not only that, their combat experience would be linked to their battle fatigue
[21:13] jediigor: you could have negative battle fatigue represent "freshness"
[21:13] jediigor: oh wait,nm, experience can do that
[21:13] EECSlabGopher: a more expereinced person would have less detriments from battle fatigue
[21:14] EECSlabGopher: now the next question would be this, and its an important gameplay question
[21:14] EECSlabGopher: lets say you are losing, you have one planet left
[21:14] EECSlabGopher: your commander is flipping out from battle fatigue, but he has to pull of one more battle, if he wins the final showdown you defeat your enemy well enough to rebuild and survive
[21:15] EECSlabGopher: would you want a commander to snap
[21:15] EECSlabGopher: ?
[21:15] EECSlabGopher: and the only option is that the next in command stats are then applied
[21:15] EECSlabGopher: actually think of endor or when thrawn died
[21:15] EECSlabGopher: both times palleon couldn't win the battle and retreated
[21:16] jediigor: huh?
[21:16] EECSlabGopher: lets say your thrawn character exceeds their battle fatigue limit (its one thing to die, another to just need to relax) because you've been burning them out doing dealying actions
[21:16] jediigor: " the next in command stats are then applied" ?
[21:17] EECSlabGopher: so now the second highest ranking character is placed in the sim
[21:17] EECSlabGopher: hmm maye a math example
[21:17] jediigor: oh sim wise
[21:17] jediigor: i think having a character die because of battle fatigue is a little too much
[21:17] EECSlabGopher: no I mean releived of command for that time
[21:18] EECSlabGopher: nervious breakdown or something
[21:18] EECSlabGopher: or lets say that the battle fatigue impacts their tactical stat to the point that they are actually not the best commander
[21:18] jediigor: oh sure, nervous breakdown
[21:18] jediigor: ah
[21:18] jediigor: yeah that last one is a better idea
[21:19] EECSlabGopher: now the second best character on an absolute level is at the top of the pyramid of morale tactics and command bonuses
[21:19] jediigor: or I mean have an option ... "Automatically have highest stats commander control fleet"
[21:19] EECSlabGopher: would you want to lose the pivotal battle as a player because your autogenerated second in command wasn't up to the job?
[21:19] EECSlabGopher: good point
[21:20] EECSlabGopher: how about the option either relevies the current commander, or the alternative is to push them, which lowers their absolute stats (shell shock)
[21:20] jediigor: sure just let the player decide
[21:20] EECSlabGopher: yeah
[21:20] EECSlabGopher: good point
[21:20] EECSlabGopher: though I think the big picture issue is this
[21:21] EECSlabGopher: as a player, if you had just spent an hour doing a bunch of last ditch delaying actions to try to survive, and then you find out that your people are so battle fatiged that they can't win, would you feel cheated that you wasted your time?
[21:22] jediigor: thats easy
[21:22] jediigor: "miracles" will lower the battle fatigue
[21:22] EECSlabGopher: stick it in a massivily multiplayer enviroment though, where people will join in to wipe you out etc
[21:23] EECSlabGopher: I agree on the miracles point
[21:23] jediigor: okay, thats kind of ambiguous, but if you were on your last planet with an inferior fleet and you won , the reward would be to give you a new chance
[21:23] EECSlabGopher: some probability that provides a multiplier
[21:23] EECSlabGopher: all right
[21:24] jediigor: either that or miracles could temporarily bypass the battle fatigue
[21:24] jediigor: like stim packs
[21:24] jediigor: you would *pause* the battle fatigue growth and at the same time make the *effective* battle fatigue 50%
[21:24] jediigor: and then down the road when you are getting your things back together the miracle could start wearing off
[21:25] jediigor: or it could just be a right-away battle fatigue permanent lowering, but that wouldn't be as special
[21:25] EECSlabGopher: now how about you have a brlliant commander, and they are pushed for a long time, accumulate battle fatigue and are pushed past their limit, would their maximum stat cap drop?
[21:25] EECSlabGopher: personally I think it should, by a little
[21:26] jediigor: sure
[21:26] EECSlabGopher: its like running a car without oil, the engine suffers
[21:26] jediigor: yeah.. i mean the game should just have an option that will warn people in terms of "doctor reports so-and-so is close to nervous breakdown, recommend put him on rest immediately"
[21:27] EECSlabGopher: now I was also thinking that the tactics stat would have an effect where the higher the stat is the more likely they would get a large multiplier
[21:27] EECSlabGopher: so if you have a 50 in the stat out of 100
[21:27] EECSlabGopher: you are matched against a 50 all else being equal you win 50% of the time
[21:28] jediigor: huh..
[21:28] jediigor: a large multipler for what
[21:28] EECSlabGopher: but make it so that a 50 generates a 1/500 chance of a 'miracle' that gives your commander a one time instantaneous stat boost
[21:28] EECSlabGopher: and a 60 in the stat would be 1/400 or something
[21:28] EECSlabGopher: at 100 they would have a 1/20 chance of it happeneing
[21:28] EECSlabGopher: call it inspiration or something :-p
[21:29] jediigor: oh
[21:29] jediigor: it can be a mixture of all 3 stats
[21:29] jediigor: the higher the stats the more probability of a miracle maybe?
[21:29] EECSlabGopher: that would allow a good commander with a small force to beat a big force, without making it just I have +10 and you have +5
[21:29] EECSlabGopher: yeah exactly
[21:29] jediigor: lol yeah
[21:30] jediigor: gotta be careful with probability though, too much will piss a player of
[21:30] EECSlabGopher: right
[21:30] EECSlabGopher: 1/20 sounds good, maybe 1/10 at best
[21:30] EECSlabGopher: and low tactics people would have it very rarely
[21:30] jediigor: it should also depend on the situation
[21:31] jediigor: like
[21:31] jediigor: good stats + bad fleet = better chance of a miracle
[21:31] jediigor: good stats + good fleet = less, because the commander needs to flex his brain muscles less
[21:31] EECSlabGopher: good point
[21:31] EECSlabGopher: the more the difference the higher the bonus?
[21:32] jediigor: yes, probably, and not so much a bad commander + a good fleet.. that should be like negative miracle or something
[21:32] jediigor: lets say a blunder
[21:32] jediigor: so have probabilities for tactical blunders too
[21:32] EECSlabGopher: yeah
[21:32] jediigor: and in real-time battles you could represent this as the after-battle stat effects
